How to Build a Team You Can Actually Afford

Let’s talk about something that every growing entrepreneur runs into eventually. You have way too much on your plate. Your calendar is full. You're stretched thin. You know it’s time to get help. But the moment you start thinking about hiring, that wave of worry hits. Can I really afford this? What if I mess it up? What if I hire the wrong person?

If that sounds familiar, this post is for you.

In a recent episode of The Amanda Kaufman Show, I sat down with Rochelle Poulton, fractional COO and founder of Kaizen Operational Strategies. Rochelle works with businesses to streamline operations, reclaim time, and build teams that actually function well. If you are at the stage where you are building or growing a team, she brought so much wisdom you’re going to want to hear.

Your Team Deserves More Than Scraps

One of the first things Rochelle said that stopped me in my tracks was her belief that team members should be paid well. Not just “decent.” Well. Wages that let them live, not just survive. She said, “Money doesn’t solve all problems, but it does solve a lot of problems when you can just write a check.”

She wasn’t saying it as a nice idea. She was saying it as a strategy that works. If you want to retain talent, build strong culture, and reduce turnover, you need to pay people what they’re worth. Period.

I know what you might be thinking. That sounds expensive. And Rochelle’s answer was both practical and empowering.

You Can Afford the Right Team with the Right Systems

This is not about hiring a big team. It’s about hiring a focused team and giving them systems that support them. When you use strong workflows, meaningful onboarding, and tools like AI to supplement their work, you need fewer people. You can afford to pay those people well because you’re not throwing money at inefficiency.

Rochelle explained that many businesses think they need more hands. What they really need are better systems and clarity. Once you get those in place, your team becomes lean, focused, and effective.

And that means you can afford to invest in the right people instead of constantly reacting to breakdowns.

Hustle Might Get You to 20K Months, But It Won’t Get You Beyond

One of my favorite moments in our conversation was when Rochelle said that you can hustle your way to a $20,000 month, but it becomes unscalable if you don’t have a clear customer journey and consistent offers.

This is something I see all the time. A business owner hustles their way into a full calendar, but every client is different, every delivery is custom, and they have no room to breathe.

The next level of growth comes from structure. Not more hustle.

If you want to scale your business without working 80 hours a week, this is the kind of mindset shift that makes all the difference.

Are You Actually Profitable?

Here’s something that hit home for a lot of listeners. Rochelle said, “If you think you're profitable but you're only paying yourself a couple thousand dollars a month, then you're probably not profitable because you can't afford to replace yourself.”

Let that sink in.

Profitability is not just about what your business brings in. It’s about being able to pay yourself well and still have room to hire the right people. If the business only works because you’re doing everything, then it’s not really working. And it is definitely not scalable.

This is where many entrepreneurs need to take a real look at pricing, packages, and how they spend their time. You might feel busy and successful, but if the foundation isn’t solid, it won’t support long-term growth.

Expect the Process to Be Messy

Rochelle also brought a refreshing dose of honesty. She said you will probably not get your hiring right the first time. Or the second. Or maybe even the third. That is part of the process.

She encouraged us to stop looking at failure as the end. Instead, it’s just another opportunity to succeed. Every “wrong” hire helps you clarify what you actually need. Every mistake teaches you what to fix next time.

This mindset is powerful. It frees you from perfection and gives you permission to keep building, even when it feels messy.

When Is It Time to Hire a COO?

This was an important clarification. Rochelle works with businesses that are doing at least $500,000 in annual revenue. That’s because, at that level, there is something to manage. There is a team or at least the beginnings of one. There are real systems in place that can be improved.

If you're not quite there yet, that’s okay. Your focus right now is getting consistent revenue, building out your offers, and starting to bring in support. That might be a virtual assistant, a project manager, or a contractor who helps with fulfillment. Start where you are.

As Rochelle said, you don’t need to have it all figured out. You just need to be willing to look at the numbers, stay curious, and commit to building something stronger.

Final Thoughts

Building a team you can actually afford is not about hiring the cheapest help you can find. It’s about creating a business that works. That means pricing your offers properly, building systems that scale, and paying yourself and your team in a way that reflects the value you deliver.

You are not supposed to do this alone. You’re supposed to grow. And that means letting go of control, learning through experience, and trusting the process.

If you’ve been wondering whether you’re ready to hire, or how to grow your team in a sustainable way, I hope this conversation gave you the clarity you need.

You can do this. And your future team will thank you for building a business that actually works for everyone in it.

Chapters List

00:00 – Why This Conversation Matters

02:42 – Why Paying Your Team Well Is Smart Business

05:00 – The Hidden Costs of Hiring and the Power of Systems

10:02 – When Success Outpaces Structure

14:26 – The “Guinea Pig” Role Trap

20:01 – When You're Ready for a COO

Full Transcript

Rochelle Poulton (00:00)

Now, don't look at failure as a bad thing. I look at it as a second opportunity to succeed. So just because it didn't work out the first time doesn't mean it's not going to work out later.

Amanda Kaufman (00:27)

Well, hey, hey, welcome back to the Amanda Kaufman show. And in this episode, I am so excited. And you're going to find out why, because I have Rochelle Poulton here, who is a fractional COO. But wait, there's more. She's the founder of Kaizen operational strategies. And if you don't know what Kaizen means, it basically means iterative improvement, like getting better and better. It's awesome. She helps service-based

businesses and owners streamline their operations, increase their profitability, and reclaim their time, which of course any great operator would do. But I think what's really, really special about Rochelle is her mission. She's got a background as an attorney with decades of experience in real estate and finance, and she brings this really unique perspective to her work.

She works with entrepreneurs who have been at this for a minute. They probably have a team and that's what really seems to be driving Rochelle. Like when we met in a business incubator that we're in together, she told me that her mission was to help entrepreneurs to pay their team more. And I'm like, now that's an interesting angle. And so as we do this episode, you're gonna find out that she is for sure known for her results driven approach.

She knows that efficiency does actually mean more money. And I love the idea of lifting the world up, not just lining the CEO's pockets, but genuinely making the world better through her work. And so let's get into it. know, Rochelle, she's a devoted mom. She's a lifelong learner. These are two of my favorite things. And she is an advocate of the Kaizen philosophy for that continuous improvement in both business and life. So like we're on that page. Rochelle.

Welcome to the show!

Rochelle Poulton (02:22)

Thank you for having me, Amanda. I'm so excited to be here.

Amanda Kaufman (02:26)

my

gosh, I'm so excited to have you. And, you know, your approach, I just do find very refreshing because I see a lot of entrepreneurs that do operations. You know, I actually myself have an operations background as a consultant. It's obviously crazy important, but it did stand out to me when you said you wanted workers to be having a high living wage, like you wanted people to get paid really well. Can you like?

unpack that a little more for us. Why is that such a driving force behind what you do?

Rochelle Poulton (02:59)

Yeah, so in corporate, like the biggest part and the biggest problem that business owners have is looking at the bottom line. Most business owners don't even want to look at it. But there's still people that are in your organization that make your business happen. They literally are the legs that you step on. And so it's hard for your employees to deliver high results consistently and retain good talent and build a good culture if they're stressed about medical

bills, if they're stressed about their car breaking down, if they're stressed about affording child care.

And so I have found that a good team doesn't have those kinds of stressors if they're paid well, right? Like money doesn't solve all problems, but it does solve a lot of problems when you can just write a check. So making sure that your employees are starting out at a salary of maybe 40 bucks an hour instead of $20 an hour is a good starting point for that because in today's economy, $20 an hour is a tough sell.

A lot of people won't even really consider the job offer, especially if you want years of experience, especially if you want them to be efficient problem solvers. If you want good solid employees, it's really, really hard to help them achieve the life that they want if they can't afford basic necessities like rent.

Amanda Kaufman (04:17)

I remember you

dropping that 40 bucks and the first thing that flew through my mind as a fellow mama female entrepreneur was I'm like, dang, I don't think I can get a babysitter these days for less than 23 bucks, like a good one, like one I would wanna leave my kids with, you know what I'm saying? So yeah, as soon as you said it, I was like, yeah, obviously this makes a lot of sense. And of course we're talking about domestic United States based employees.

might be a little different if you're if you're an international organization, but even so, like, what do you see as some of the top opportunities that businesses have these days to justify paying so much more like you're talking about? I think it's not an accident you're talking about 20 to $25 because like a lot of entrepreneurs are like, well, I guess I'm going to hire and like I'm going to just squeeze my budget as tight as possible because after all, I never have enough money.

What do you see as like kind of those big moves that they need to make to get into more of that $40 an hour mindset?

Rochelle Poulton (05:17)

Yeah, well first is recognizing the labor cost is expensive, right? Like it isn't just the $20 an hour that you're paying. You you still have to pay insurance and payroll and everything else. So whatever you're thinking about paying someone, just multiply that by 1.25. And that's a really conservative estimate of what it really costs. So when I'm saying think about it in terms of instead of 40,000 a year, 80,000 a year, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

like that's a non-starter. Well, is it? Because in this day and age, you have software, you have good workflows, and more importantly, you have AI tools that can supplement the additional staff. And with good onboarding and good systems, you need less team members, which means that you can afford to retain quality team members and reward them.

Amanda Kaufman (06:03)

There it is.

Yeah, there it is. Yeah. Making your place an actual great place to work because you're leveraging these technologies and you're not just hiring a body and then saying like, you're problem now.

Rochelle Poulton (06:20)

Exactly a lot of companies

will make the mistake of not having any systems at all and we know this from our operator background right like they Come they hire you you come in they say you built the system But the person doesn't know anything about your business about your company about why we do things the way we do So it's like why do these systems not get built and it's because the owner doesn't have time the employee doesn't have time But when you have someone come in and build the system for you and then it's just plug-and-play and your supplement

with important tools like AI to supplement your staff, not replace them, supplement them to improve their workflow, to improve their job quality so they're not entering data 15 times in three different systems. Let's get rid of that bottleneck. Let's get rid of the duplicative and triplicative processes. It makes it a lot easier for people to want to stay and want to work if they find the value of the work that they're doing is actually

meaningful. And so instead of just, you know, expecting them to move their mouse clicker, you know, so many times per minute when they work from home, it's like, no, no, no, no, we just really need you to do this. And I'm a big fan, too, of like, if you're efficient, why do you need to work 40 hours a week? If you can do the same job in 25 to 30, pay them full time. Like, you're paying them for the quality of the work they're doing, not to keep loading up their plate until they break.

Amanda Kaufman (07:42)

Mm, absolutely, absolutely. And like we're touching on so many things, you know, the culture of the organization, the systems, the even just like what kind of role are you hiring for? You know, are you are you paying for these swivel economics where somebody is just like swiveling between these systems, like you said, or are you paying for somebody to think, you know, and and to be able to really engage the work that needs to be done in a high quality and powerful way?

I love it. Now, Rochelle, you have a really interesting background. And when I got to know you even better as we were preparing for this episode, I noticed that you have a unique perspective, I would say, when it comes to the whole financial thing. Because you were an attorney, and you specialized in helping people.

not just to grow wealth, to handle debt and things like that as well. Would you say that that's informing your perspective now, all that experience that you had as an attorney?

Rochelle Poulton (08:46)

Yeah, so being a lawyer, you you have to be able to maintain a perspective from very different points of view. So you can see the truth from every angle. That's part of the job. So for me, when I'm working with employers, it's a lot different because I understand what it's like to be the admin. I've been there, you know, I've climbed the ladder, did the top thing, right? Now I've run businesses, owned businesses, invest in businesses. I do all the things, but I still remember what it was like being an employee working for somebody

else and some of the struggles that I faced there. And then as an attorney, I really dealt with consumer rights law. So I dealt with people in the worst financial times of their life, people who were going through bankruptcy, people who needed to get out of debt, people who needed to restructure their lives so they could have better credit and buy a house and build a future. And a big part of that had to do with letting go of the shame and the blame and feeling like this was your fault.

Not pay their bills because they don't want to they can don't pay their bills because they can't and a big part of that has to do with wages and what they're paid and You know if the company is making you know a really healthy profit margin Why not pay your staff more so they too can live a better quality of life Like it's okay to make as much money as you want I'm a big fan of that right like that's why you're in business is because you want the flexible hours and you want the paycheck but you have to remember that the

people that are supporting you and believing in your company and help drive it forward, you know, you should take care of them. That's also your responsibility, the same way that you would take care of your customers.

Amanda Kaufman (10:19)

So good. mean, like my brain is going crazy right now because I'm thinking about all the different parallels between the decisions that we make as a consumer that can really lead to that consumer debt situation. But also it's like the same problem when you're an entrepreneur. So what I mean by that is just because you can hire someone doesn't mean you should kind of like just because you can get the credit card doesn't mean you should. Right. And so I'm actually really curious about your philosophy.

When it comes to businesses that are maybe at that inflection point. So I work with a lot of businesses that they've really achieved the ceiling of what they can do on their own, you know, as an expert or as a, a generally an expert in a service provider. And now they're entertaining team and they're starting to like move into hiring and they're kind of at that inflection point. I have not met a business owner in that inflection point that doesn't want to do it right. And of course it almost feels like

a rite of passage and I love your perspective on this, that it won't go right. It will be a dumpster fire and it's not going to be awesome. What would you say to that person in the earlier years of hiring that they do want to do it right? What are some of the things that they could take care of upfront that could maybe reduce some of the pain of those early days of having employees and team members?

Rochelle Poulton (11:42)

Yeah, I think it's a repeatable pattern for all small business, right? Like it's a chicken or the egg issue. I need help, but I can't afford to hire the help. And the big problem with that is like, well, why not? You know, let's take a look at your service menu. Let's take a look at your pricing. Let's take a look at your numbers and figure out what exactly we did here. Because if you can't afford to scale, then you can't afford really to grow. so putting that foundation in place first, right? Like what are the systems that you need?

software that you need, how can we help free up some of your time so you can focus as the business owner on the things that are revenue generating activity, right? And then how can we delegate certain administrative tasks to somebody else? Or are you the technician too and you're also delivering the services? Do we need to hire someone that can also handle those deliverables? Like which comes first? What do you have more of? What's taking up more of your time? And I think that's a big mistake that a lot of business owners make is they assume

that they need to pay an assistant to handle admin, but it's like if you only have five or ten hours of admin, you didn't solve the problem of freeing up your schedule. You still have tons and tons and tons and too many things to do. So you kind of need to take a look at it from a different perspective of like, how can I afford to replace myself? If you think you're profitable, but you're only paying yourself a couple thousand dollars a month, then you're probably not profitable because you can't afford to replace yourself. So it's time to take a look at the numbers because the numbers don't lie, right?

you

Amanda Kaufman (13:07)

So

it's so true. I know like in my own journey, I did what so many do. I'm like, I'm a coach. And my first identity was I'm a coach. So I was that technician who was delivering on the coaching and one of the biggest mistakes I made very early on. I make mistakes all day, right? Like I'm a big believer in Kaizen. So I'm like, yep, we could have prepared for that better. We could have done that better. Like there's always opportunities for sure. But one of the early ones that really surprised me

Rochelle Poulton (13:23)

all every time.

Amanda Kaufman (13:33)

was when I became successful, you know, as a coach, because I ended up with having a client load that was so heavy that I had no time for the marketing and the visibility to do the acquisition. And I later realized that when you build a coaching business, you think the business is coaching. It's really a marketing business, right? It's about relationships. It's about like moving people through that experience. The coaching itself is amazing.

But I did have to learn some really hard lessons about right sizing and right balancing where I was putting my time to then give myself enough leverage to be able to go to that next level and that next level and that next level. Yeah, that's so good. So what do you see is like the biggest obstacle that people encounter when they maybe are in a position like that, where they've been successful or successful enough or successful, they think.

But they're trying to access that next leverage point. What would be maybe the first thing they should do? And what are some expectations? I want you to tell me the truth, Rochelle, about the expectations they should have once they identify these bottlenecks.

Rochelle Poulton (14:43)

The first, absolute first rule is anytime you have a guinea pig role, everyone is set up for failure. So don't hire friends and family. Like in that first role, because you don't really know what you need and they don't know what they really need to provide you with. And so there's no way for really anybody to succeed. Yes.

Amanda Kaufman (14:59)

just before we go forward, just before we jump forward,

what do you, I think I know what you mean by the guinea pig role, but can you be even more specific and just tell us like, what is that?

Rochelle Poulton (15:10)

So a guinea pig role is the first time you hire someone for a specific role in your company, is what I'm referring to. So the first time you hire an admin assistant. You probably did a job description, but you don't really know the tasks you need them to do. You don't really know how you want them to answer the phone or how to respond to email or what the response time should be for things. Like you haven't really had a chance to think all that through because you're busy running a business. Like you're not doing operations, right?

It's

really hard for that person entering into that role to know what the expectations are because you didn't set any. And so they're a guinea pig. They're testing all of your ideas about what you think they should be doing with the reality of the situation. And that...

That is a recipe for disaster. So you don't want them to fail, but the odds of failure on that first go is extremely high. Now, don't look at failure as a bad thing. I look at it as a second opportunity to succeed. So just because it didn't work out the first time doesn't mean it's not going to work out later.

And it doesn't mean that that person is a bad fit for your company. It just maybe means they're a bad fit for that role. So figuring out kind of what you need and understanding

that you may not get it right the first time, the second time, the third time, you're gonna get it right. Like sometimes in business we just have lessons that we have to learn. And for me personally, I learn 100 % more about business than I did the year before. And I've been in business for a very long time and I look back at when I started my law firm at 29 and I'm like, wow, it was dummy, dummy, dum dum. Like I can't believe I did that.

Amanda Kaufman (16:46)

I'm getting t-shirts made. When I started out with the dummy dummy dum dum. I love that. That's so funny. But it's so true because I mean, I think that naivete in some ways is so required as an entrepreneur. You know, like you need it because if you knew, baby, if you knew what you were going to

Rochelle Poulton (17:00)

It is.

Amanda Kaufman (17:07)

put up with the mistakes you were going to make, the money you were going to lose, the wrong turns, the left turns. And just like, if you really, really knew you would never start the journey, you know, so I think it is so important. And in a lot of my coaching, I'm actually bringing people back to that playful state and, you know, bringing them back to like, hey, let's get back to vision. Because, you know, sometimes it would be really hard code how hard things can be that it's like, that's not real, though. You know, like that's how you feel. And that's the story you're telling. But

Rochelle Poulton (17:17)

It's true. ⁓

Amanda Kaufman (17:36)

Yeah, so so good. And it's making a lot of sense with this guinea pig role. It's like, hey, you know, but you don't. And so you're going to learn so many things. Don't hire your family. Like that's that just adds so much stress to it. That's great advice. I love that.

Rochelle Poulton (17:52)

Like, please don't. And if

you do, it's OK. But just be kind and remember, it is family. You can't treat them like you would a normal employee. There's a totally different dynamic in a family-run business. But that's a different podcast.

Amanda Kaufman (17:59)

Thank

Yeah.

That's another podcast. I suspect we may have another one in the future.

Yeah. Because you're fun. So, so good. And by the way, dear listener, I definitely hired my sister and she worked with us for a long time and I got the pleasure of getting to fire my sister. It is a, that's a whole different level of suck. And she's probably, you know, she might, she might hear this and, you know,

We said at the very beginning, we said sisters first, but it was so difficult to make that call. Like we both knew that was the call that we needed to make. And we actually just had a conversation about a week ago. Like I had to let her go maybe a year and a half or so ago. We had a conversation just last week and we were just like all patting ourselves on the back about how we've been so great about this whole transition. But.

My gosh, like if you don't want to sign up for the possibility that it might not turn out, I have to just really echo with you. And I don't regret hiring her at all or working with her, but I do regret having to fire her. And like that was not it was it was already a really hard situation and it just was so like so hard all around, you know. So, yeah, I love that. Had to tell that story. So coming back to you, Rochelle.

In terms of like people engaging an ops person, you you said earlier, you were like, well, of course you didn't think of that because you're not an ops person. And because I am kind of an ops person, I don't do it as a COO person, but I do tend to think in system and I do tend to think in very operational sort of ways, which causes problems for me in other ways in my business, I will admit.

How does somebody know whether they should be moving to a COO? Something I noticed is you say very specifically, you're working with half million dollar up businesses. Like you're working with these businesses that have a level of cash flow and revenue going through that's probably a little higher than some people might think.

So talk to me about that. When is it right to hire a COO versus other kinds of things? Like when is somebody ready for that?

Rochelle Poulton (20:17)

Yeah, so when you're ready for...

actually ready to make more money and you find yourself at that point where there is not enough time in the day. You know, you're you can only spend so much time responding to emails. You're stressed out about the phone calls. You don't know what your next move is. That is a great time to consult with someone in ops because our job is to look at what is your day to day? What is your workflow? What is your client journey? How does this all tie into

together and how can we give you your time back because that's something that you have a finite amount of like that's the thing that matters the most is like you being able to spend time with your family you being able to support your family because most entrepreneurs are in that role and they're the go-to person in their family when something happens like they're the ones cutting the checks and so you need to be able to financially support yourself your family everybody that comes to you because that's usually the role you're in so making sure that you've got systems

in place to take care of yourself and your mental health and have your business run when you're not there is when you want to talk to someone like me. And so I as a fractional CEO, I need something to manage. So if you don't have a team, there's nothing for me to manage.

Amanda Kaufman (21:30)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rochelle Poulton (21:30)

But if you're ready to hire a team,

I can help you with that. I do strategy, but I also handle a lot of implementation because I've been there. I've done it a thousand times. I totally get why business owners run out of time in the day. It's because you don't want to set up your campaign workflow to follow up with leads when you miss a phone call. Who has time for that? So you think you need it, you know you need it. You have the never-ending

list of things that you wish you could do, well someone like me comes in and I prioritize it for you and I tell you like yeah, like first we need to make money, we need to save you time, we need to work on revenue, we need to work on operations, we need to work on systems and you know kind of get you to that next level and the results are pretty quick right because I've been there and done that a few times.

Amanda Kaufman (22:18)

For sure, for sure.

And I think like, for some people listening, you might be like, my God, half a million dollars. Well, that's like a $40,000 to $50,000 a month run rate. So you're probably ready for looking at having somebody help with your operations if you're at that level. But if you're kind of like, how do I get from...

20 to 40, how do I double myself, you know, so that I'm ready to hire this EO? To me, like, this is actually kind of the joy of business. Like, the joy of business is figuring out those puzzles. And I love working with people more kind of aiming at that 20 to $50,000 range because that to me is the pinch point. Like, that's the pinch point. Because you aren't making enough money to hire someone that can, like, start to meaningfully take your work.

flows and redesign your workflows and help you to build new team. But you're successful enough that you have a lot of responsibility. So I would say that, you know, getting out of that, you know, 15 to 20,000 to 50,000 desert is really important because, you know, that's where you're going to be able to start to meaningfully change your time dynamics and everything. Yeah.

Rochelle Poulton (23:33)

Yeah,

and when I'm working with companies that size, it's a nine month strategy to get you to that 40, 50K mark. And that is taking a look at your pricing, taking a look at where are you leaving money on the table? Because you are for sure leaving money on the table. And that's usually a team dynamic where you've got a couple people working for you, but you need to reevaluate, how are we doing?

pricing? How are we packaging our services? What are we really spending our time doing? And where is it better spent? yeah. Who's your target market?

Amanda Kaufman (24:00)

Who are we selling to? Yes, who are we selling to? That's really big one.

Amen. like basics. Because the thing is you can hustle your way to 20K months. But the problem is that you're very likely, if you've just hustled and you don't have a structured approach to it, it becomes unscalable because you've got a client like this and a client like that and a client like this and a client like that. So you don't get the scalable customer journey.

Rochelle Poulton (24:11)

Yes.

Amanda Kaufman (24:26)

that you can throw a lot of momentum and energy towards. my God, Rochelle, I could talk to you all day and day, but in the meantime, what's the best way for people to catch up with you and see what's coming up next?

Rochelle Poulton (24:38)

Yes, the best way is to check out my website. is kaizenaz.com. that's, know, kaizen is a philosophy that I have, you continuous improvement, right? If you can improve 1 % every day, like in whatever field, you're gonna be a better person.

Amanda Kaufman (24:54)

Amen.

Yeah. 1%. I love that. So good. And listener, if you loved this conversation, definitely grab it and send it to your three friends that would benefit the most from hearing about building an operation that they're really excited about and went ready for it. Like definitely share this episode by grabbing the link and sending it on text or email. And hey, don't forget to smash subscribe. You don't want to miss our next show. And if you've been really loving the show,

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